tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post7126625742636685521..comments2023-10-07T04:06:40.018-05:00Comments on Save OBU: Did Sin Cause the Tornadoes? OBU Dean Says YesAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15050790418399919111noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-86588041067683268252013-05-29T14:48:08.631-05:002013-05-29T14:48:08.631-05:00Thanks for weighing in.Thanks for weighing in.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050790418399919111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-4794760372513440292013-05-29T14:47:26.434-05:002013-05-29T14:47:26.434-05:00Agree 100% about HuffPo. The commenter is referrin...Agree 100% about HuffPo. The commenter is referring to this segment (unrelated to Save OBU), where I was on a panel of four guests. The moderator (Jon Huntsman's daughter) was clueless. She had no idea who Frank Schaeffer is, and they somehow surmised that I would be representing the conservative point of view.<br />http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/republicans-christian-religion-gop-jesus-/51965c7a78c90a4dd600003bAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050790418399919111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-59748410206363400902013-05-29T08:29:25.076-05:002013-05-29T08:29:25.076-05:00 Also, the Huffington Post is a joke. Having you r... Also, the Huffington Post is a joke. Having you represent the Republican view made me laugh. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-42353680776960901222013-05-29T08:27:54.216-05:002013-05-29T08:27:54.216-05:00Just thought I'd tell you that Fallwell apolog...Just thought I'd tell you that Fallwell apologized for those comments and Robertson is just an idiot, this coming from a conservative evangelial Christian. I've never been a fan of Robertson and frankly the last 10 years he has said some very stupid things. Also, he's into the whole "health and wealth" "faith healing" and junk like that.<br />Anyways, in short McClellan is simply pointed to that fact that we can thank the fall of man to why we have natural disasters. Before the fall, man was perfect, earth was pure. Thanks to the sin of Adam, we have natural disasters.<br />Do you even have a Biblical view of God Jacob? It does not seem you do. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-52070869735946807942013-05-28T22:08:58.303-05:002013-05-28T22:08:58.303-05:00Excellent points all. Thank you so much. Your last...Excellent points all. Thank you so much. Your last paragraph is worth reading, repeating and meditating on. Gets at the heart of the matter.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050790418399919111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-88110655735388410032013-05-28T22:07:10.744-05:002013-05-28T22:07:10.744-05:00Exactly. People who want to claim the traditional ...Exactly. People who want to claim the traditional attributes of God (omniscient, omnipotent, etc) are stuck with a God who could stop evil but chooses not to. I'd much rather say that God can't than that God won't. But again, my conception of God is radically different from McClellan's. Thanks for weighing in, Tony.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050790418399919111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-16774705493841256202013-05-28T21:31:58.244-05:002013-05-28T21:31:58.244-05:00McClellan's arguments lead me to this sort of ...McClellan's arguments lead me to this sort of thinking:<br /><br />https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/969358_178910378936041_1335682677_n.jpgTeltrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-28954231490471116602013-05-28T20:01:29.022-05:002013-05-28T20:01:29.022-05:00Far more problematic in McClellan's piece (and...Far more problematic in McClellan's piece (and perhaps in "anonymous" above) is the assumption that tornadoes are a result of sin and will not be part of God's redeemed creation. In effect, then, the parts of creation that survive the harrowing by Christ will only be those that can be neutered and controlled by man. All of Creation that does not obey us is evil and will be smacked down in the "new Earth."<br /><br />I do not think this is a faithful approach to creation in the present, and I doubt that it is faithful to what God will do in the future age. It may bring me no comfort, but I reserve the right to judge tornadoes for the God who chose to speak to Job from the midst of one.<br /><br />The real story here is what happens when apologetics becomes the primary task of theology, as I believe is the stated intention of the department of religion at OBU under McClellan. Theological categories like "creation" then become tools in service of convincing a straw man of his role in "sinful" "creation" before either category has been sufficiently defined. Far better for the church to affirm that God is both creator and redeemer, ask for God's mercy, and then go about consoling and cleaning up (as your excellent litany promoted, Jacob).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-18868214308974115232013-05-28T18:38:03.144-05:002013-05-28T18:38:03.144-05:00No worries. I just don't get into the whole &q...No worries. I just don't get into the whole "natural evil" justification because I don't think that God has anything to do with the weather. My conception of God is very, very different from the dean's, and it comes as no surprise to me that most readers will find themselves closer to McClellan than to me on the theological spectrum. -j-Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050790418399919111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-62993895602852910242013-05-28T18:21:52.189-05:002013-05-28T18:21:52.189-05:00I think this may be the line you are referring to ...I think this may be the line you are referring to when you say that McClellan says that "God killed them instead." - "We do not know "why" God has permitted these to occur in specific places nor any specific reasons addressed to the specific communities. "Why" they occur, we believe is natural evil in a fallen creation."<br /><br />If so, I can sort of see what you mean. I don't think McClellan would use the words "God killed" when referring to these victims, but a sense of "God killed" may be couched in certain language. That being said, he does follow up the "God permitted" line with natural disasters are simply part of a "fallen creation" that has "natural evil" in it. Therefore, I read him saying yes warm winds/cool winds (science...) cause tornadoes, but there just isn't something right about creation. Meaning: it is no longer how God intended it to be so it groans for redemption, just like humans.<br /><br />Also, I should have clarified that I really have no idea what "Christ's return" or "redemption" or "the fullness of His Kingdom" look like completely. However, I know that God has made promises to us to make all things right; as He originally intended. <br /><br />Finally, I liken your post to Rachel Held Evans' response to Piper's very stupid tweet:<br />http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/john-pipers-tornado-tweets-stir-up-a-theological-debate_n_3328857.html <br />I'm sure you were following along with this debacle as I was. I initially read Held Evans' response and agreed and was mad at Piper. Then I read Piper's actual posts and what he said he meant by them. Then I saw Held Evans say her response was ill timed...much like Piper's stupid tweet. I agree that in times of tragedy the first thing we should be saying are words of care, love, etc. We should be on the side of the victims offering support. Really, the last thing we need to be doing is talking theology and really even trying to logically explain things away. I only bring this up because I think what you are drawing from his HuffPost article may be a little off-base. However, the article is ill-timed and not even close to what he and all other Christians should be saying to the victims.<br /><br />I do want to say, Jacob, that I like your blog and that I never really thought that I'd be backing McClellan up. Keep doing the hard work and facing the scrutiny, I hope you know you are appreciated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-21453548227290686482013-05-28T16:01:36.233-05:002013-05-28T16:01:36.233-05:00That's the thing... Fundamentalists couch thei...That's the thing... Fundamentalists couch their theology in such a way that you can't disagree with all of it. Here, McClellan sandwiched the theological part with very nice pastoral sections. Even in the theological discussion, he says a lot of things you can't really challenge (e.g., " We believe that God created all things from nothing and His creation is good" and "We cannot explain His every act in these cases of disaster.") But right there in the middle lies the stinker: God could have saved those people but he killed them instead.<br /><br />What you are saying is quite different from what McClellan apparently believes about God, sin, creation, redemption, etc.<br /><br />Personally, what you are suggesting sounds much more in line with classical Christian theology to me. I don't know what that portends for weather patterns in the future. But theologically speaking, I personally am pretty far from mainstream OBU, as has occasionally come to light on this blog. I don't know what to think of "Christ's return." I have usually conceived of the fullness of Christ's Kingdom in terms of justice, mercy, and faith -- not weather. But you are right that there must be some ecological dimension, as much very fine ecological theology (evangelical and otherwise) has pointed out.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050790418399919111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8524895972705575613.post-1583066654535174202013-05-28T14:42:41.551-05:002013-05-28T14:42:41.551-05:00Jacob, I wonder if sin is the cause of such terrib...Jacob, I wonder if sin is the cause of such terrible things like natural disasters. I most definitely do not agree with Falwell or McClellan and hold their words to be abhorrent. In no way do I think specific sin caused this. It's not as if the people of Moore and elsewhere deserved this because of their sin. <br />However, did God not create this world in perfection, whether that was in six days or over millions of years. And with the entrance of sin, what was perfect became imperfect, much like humans. Creation now longs to be redeemed, both humans and environment. And with Christ's return all of creation will be redeemed. <br />So tornadoes happen because of ...(let science speak), but with Christ's return, the redemption of all creation, and the eradication of sin, won't things like natural disasters also be taken care of? I think sin is what we are waiting for to be fully taken care of...the fullness of His Kingdom. I mean, the Kingdom is here but not yet fully, right? So in its fullness all creation is redeemed, both humans and environment.<br />Thoughts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com